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TIME: 10:00 AM


HIBC Members:

Leningrad Elarionoff, Kohala
Roy Helbush
Ron Dela Cruz, Kohala
Ulu Sherlock, Hilo
Pele Hanoa, Ka'u
Kaleo Kuali'i, Kona
Cynthia Nazara, Kona
Dutchie Saffrey, Puna
Anna Cariaga, Ka'u
Charles Young


Ku Kahakalau, Hamakua
Roger Harris
Jacqui Hoover

SHPD Staff:

Keola Lindsey, Burial Sites Program
Maryanne Maigret, Hawai'i Island Assistant Archaeologist


Issac Harp
Trinidad Marques
Darlyne Vierra
Dave Tuggle
Aleta Nahale
Nani Langridge
Jim Greenwell
Margaret Dancel
Ruby McDonald
Maria Orr
Richard Lovell
Mabel Kaipo
Aileen Alvarez
Rick Vidgen
Keoni Alvarez
Robert Rechtman
Janet Nenio
Cherish Harp
Iwalani Arakaki
Emily Greenwell



HIBC Chair Charles Young (Young) calls the meeting to order at 1010a.


Pele Hanoa (Hanoa) offers a pule.


Introduction of Hawai'i Island Burial Council Members and State Historic Preservation Division staff.




A motion is made to approve the July 21, 2005 HIBC meeting minutes



Vote: All in Favor






Young says the reason why this is on the agenda is that under a previous Chair, and Council Members, the HIBC had established a policy of requesting those who wished to testify or give comment use a sign-up sheet. People would then be taken in the order they signed up. The HIBC also instituted a time limit which was somewhat discretionary depending on what the HIBC Chair determined.


The HIBC wanted to discuss the established policies, and whether or not there is a need to establish additional policies.


Young asks Ruby McDonald, the past HIBC Vice-Chair to confirm that the policies were a time limit of three minutes and a sign up sheet?.


Ruby McDonald (McDonald) says it was a three minute time limit, but the Chair had the ability to extend the time limit if the testimony was relevant.


Pele Hanoa says she was on the HIBC for eight years when it started. They never had a time limit. This is not the County Council, or the State level- there is no need to time ourselves. We have to think of the lineal descendants who come from far away, and wants to give testimony- we can't limit them- we are here to listen to them. We are here to protect our iwi kupuna- we are not working with the western way to time ourselves- Hanoa does not agree with that.


The HIBC has always done it for eighteen years- now we want to change that- we need to respect everyone's testimony, even if it takes them ten minutes. People may have a lot to say about their iwi, their 'ohana, and their roots- we cannot time them.


McDonald says when she was on the Council, they had to put a time limit in place. This was a policy- the Chair had the ability to extend the time limit.


Ulu Sherlock (Sherlock) says part of it is that the Chair has to use their discretion. Sherlock has seen this when people who are testifying get off the subject and the testimony gets into personal issues- they attack the developers or whoever. When it gets into emotional or personal accusation, that is not pono.


Anna Cariaga (Cariaga) says there have been times when people get off track. She has recommended the families get together and have one person testify for the group- the family needs to prepare.


We need to give our kupuna the time to testify- don't rush them- they get nervous and forget what they were going to say.


If the Chair thinks the person is out of hand, he can cut him off, but if the testimony is good, the person should be allowed to continue.


Hanoa says that is the kuleana of the Chair- if the person is off the subject- cut them off, but there should be no time limit for testimony.


Cariaga says she understands there has to be rules and limitations.


Leningrad Elarionoff (Elarionoff) says he supports time limits. The reason is that so much repetition goes on. However, if a person is testifying and the time limit is up, the Council members should have the ability to ask questions, and get the information from that person- extending the time limit.


When someone goes off the subject, the Chair should limit it right there. HIBC members can extend the time limit by asking questions. Most times within two minutes of someone's testimony, you know what direction they are going to go.


Pele Hanoa says when our kupuna come, it is going to take some time for them to talk. The purpose of this Council is not to limit our people- we are here to malama our iwi. Hanoa does not like the time limit. The Chair is the one to stop people who are off the subject.


Dutchie Saffrey (Saffrey) says she has been in a position where she had a time limit to speak and it is tough. It is not our way to comer forward and speak. We need to come together as families and talk about it to prepare ourselves to speak, because it is our time to be heard, and specifically target what we are here for.


Saffrey agrees the HIBC Chair is the one who controls the testimony.


Young says the HIBC has been advised that because this is a public meeting, the HIBC meetings are subject to the Sunshine Law- everyone has the opportunity to testify. Even if there was a time limit, people would have the ability to come back again and testify. Young thinks it is a good idea that the HIBC state at the beginning of a meeting that there is going to be a time limit- that way the people are advised. Young has been at meetings where there has been testimony from the heart, but not relative to the decision before the Council- in those situations there has to be a limit.


Elarionoff says the time limit can be extended by the Council members paying attention to the issue, and asking questions of the person testifying to get the information the Council needs.


Young says he would like to suggest the HIBC does make a statement that there is going to be time constraints. Young would like to at least monitor the time factor. The statement should be made up front. There should also be a sign up sheet for testimony, and people would be taken in the order the signed up. The law requires that people be allowed to give testimony whether they signed up or not and whether there is a time limit or not.


A motion is made to implement a time limit for oral testimony up to the discretion of the HIBC Chair. (Elarionoff/Sherlock)


Vote: 9 ayes, 1 nay (Hanoa). The motion passes


A motion is made to implement a policy of providing a sign up sheet for individuals who wish to testify. People will be taken in the order they sign up. (Elarionoff/Sherlock)


Vote: All in Favor


Keola Lindsey (Lindsey) says at the September HIBC meeting there will be a attendance sign in sheet, and a separate sign up sheet for testimony.


Young says that he will also try and keep people in the audience aware of when the HIBC will break for lunch. Today, we will break for lunch at about 1200p.



[TMK (3) 7-4-008:13, 30]


Lindsey says a February 18, 2004 staff memo was included in the HIBC mail out this month. This memo lists 58 individuals that were recognized at that February 2004 meeting as cultural descendants.


Since that meeting there have been some problems with getting the contact information for these 58 individuals to the people writing the burial treatment plan. This is a situation that we are still trying to resolve, and avoid in the future.


Young asks Lindsey if these 58 individuals have already been recognized?.


Lindsey says they have already been recognized at the February 2004 meeting.


Jimmy Greenwell (Greenwell) himself to the Council. Greenwell is the President of West Hawai'i Business Park, LLC, which is owned by his family business which is Lanihau Properties.


Greenwell introduces Kaimi Orr, who assisted in research and communication with the descendant group.


Greenwell introduces David Tuggle, an archaeologist who authored the burial treatment plan.


Greenwell introduces Issac Harp who will be helping as a cultural monitor in this process.


Greewell gives an overview. The Ahupua'a of Honokohau Nui has been in his Family since the 1880's. Greenwell's great-grandfather became the caretaker of that land at the time- then to his grandfather- then to his father's generation- and now to his generation and our kids. His great-grandfather was Henry Nicholas Greenwell. In the 1960's his grandfather Frank Greenwell entered into a quarry licensing agreement on a large portion of this property- about 200 acres.


Their family has been slow to do anything with this land. Greenwell has often looked from makai up to the mountain, and the one green strip left in there is Honokohau. They know it is not going to be like this forever. The County developed the Keauhou to Keahole Regional plan in the 1990's- they (Greenwell) knew it was time to get started on what was ahead.


They began a long process that took almost ten years- it included an archaeological inventory survey of almost 900 acres. As a part of that, His generation began to re-learn the cultural history of this land. In 2000, Kepa Maly completed a report on the cultural history of this land as part of the environmental impact statement which was presented to the Land Use Commission. This allowed Greenwell's generation to re-acquaint with families of this place, and to refresh the memory.


Greenwell says every step through this process, they have learned more of the land, and the cultural significance- every meeting has been a good one. Greenwell retained a different archaeologist than the one who did the inventory survey. They wanted another archaeologist to come in and review and affirm what had been found, and take them through the mitigation steps- including the burial treatment plan.

They went through an environmental impact statement for the Land Use Commission Application for the reclassification of the land from conservation to urban, then through County re-zoning, and the mitigation plans including the burial treatment plan. They are mindful that this process has not been perfect- if there has been errors, they asks for forgiveness, but they are proud of the plan the HIBC will see next month. They feel close to this place, and the HIBC will see their best effort to comply.


Greenwell would like to extend an invitation for a site visit.


David Tuggle (Tuggle) introduces himself to the Council. Tuggle is an archaeologist with International Archaeologists. Another firm did the archaeological inventory survey of this property ten years ago. In the 337 acre project area, five burial sites were identified in the inventory survey- all five sites are caves. Based on context, there are both pre contact, and post contact burials. There is no reason to argue that all of these individuals are Hawaiian based on context. To Tuggle's knowledge, the only recordation of these burial sites was during the inventory survey- the bones were never removed or photographed. The Informational Packet contains a table that summarizes each burial site.


Tuggle has been working with the descendants, Maria Orr, and more recently Issac Harp in the development of the burial treatment plan. Tuggle went in and verified that nothing had changed in the 10 years since the inventory survey- in other words to make sure they had not been vandalized. It was requested to generate more detailed maps of the caves to make sure that they had been thoroughly documented and explored. That was done by a crew under his direction.


Isaac Harp (Harp) says he got involved with this project in 2000. His 'ohana was invited by the Greenwells to become involved, and Harp appreciates that. Harp requested that re-mapping of the caves be conducted to make sure the originals were accurate. Harp accompanied the survey team into the cave to make sure they did a proper and thorough job, and they exceeded his expectations- one additional burial was identified.


Harp has been negotiating a cultural monitoring agreement with Greenwell for a couple of years now- it has not been an easy process- they both have their own interests they are looking out for. Harp believes Greenwell wants to do the right thing. Harp appreciates Greenwell agreeing to expand cultural preservation areas instead of developing in-between them.


Harp's role as a cultural monitor will be to keep in communication with other descendants and monitor construction when it begins. Other descendants from the area will be hired- Harp has the authority to hire monitors for each piece of equipment working on the land- they will have the authority to stop the equipment if there are cultural finds. Harp hopes this agreement will serve as a model the State can use for large scale developments in the future. Harp will go in before the equipment comes in- it is a precautionary approach.


Maria Ka'imipono Orr (Orr) says she initially got involved with this project by being subcontracted by IARII to send out notices to the descendants. She also has coordinated the field trips for the descendants to go and look at the different sites. Orr is slowly turning over some of her responsibilities to Harp.


Harp says they have been successful in tracking down all the descendants on the list except for the last eight from the Kunewa 'Ohana. If anyone can help find contact information for the Kunewa 'Ohana, it would be appreciated.


Cariaga says Harp will have the authority to stop the machinery- Cariaga asks Harp how the operators will be informed where the sites are?.


Harp says he will be meeting with the contractors and operators prior to them getting on the project site, and the areas will be marked out. The descendants are recommending 100 foot construction buffers where machines will not be allowed.


Cariaga says the operators need to know about these sites- where to go or where not to go. If a site is damaged, Cariaga is not sure if the operator is held accountable, not just the developer.


Sherlock says some things need to be expanded on when the plan is formally submitted to the HIBC. Sherlock supports Harp's work comes from his pu'uwai.


Harp wanted to make sure as part of the contract agreement that he would have the authority to stop the equipment.


Greenwell says the last meeting with the descendant group was July 30th. The descendants were informed that this matter would be on the August HIBC agenda for an informational presentation. Greenwell assured the presentation would be informational, because a number of descendants will be here in September.


Safrrey asks if the first archaeologist did an inventory survey?- are there sketches and maps of the sites?.


Greenwell says there is an approved inventory survey for the entire property.


Sherlock asks Greenwell to consider how close structures are going to be built next to the sites and buffer zones.


End Tape 1 Side A

Begin Side B


Kaleo Kuali'i (Kuali'i) asks who did the previous archaeology work?.


Tuggle says Jennifer Robbins working for Cultural Surveys Hawai'i. The Robbins report is referenced on page 4 of the informational presentation. The survey was done in 1992, but it was approved by the SHPD in 2000.


Kuali'i thanks Greenwell and Tuggle for contacting the descendants. Kuali'i says he may have the contact information for the Kunewa 'Ohana.


Elarionoff asks Greenwell what the inventory survey entailed?.


Greenwell says the inventory survey was a step in the process that included a thorough walk through and examination of everything on the ground which identified archaeological features that merit mapping and recording and a determination whether or not any further action is required, and if burials are found, a burial treatment plan needs to be written, and data recovery. It is the building block on which preservation and mitigation plans are developed.


Elarionoff says artifacts were mentioned earlier- what is considered an artifact?- coral and stones that are out of place?.


Tuggle says if a piece of coral or a stone is out of place, it would be considered an artifact. If it was placed somewhere by a human being.


Elarionoff says there must be a long list of artifacts.


Greenwell says the list is detailed in the inventory survey.


Ron Dela Cruz (Dela Cruz) asks where are the artifacts now?.


Elarionoff says the 2004 work that was conducted indicates that the burial information is unchanged- does that mean nobody has messed with it?.


Tuggle says basically yes, it means nobody has vandalized the sites.


Elarionoff asks if every single artifact was mapped?.


Tuggle says he is not sure if every single one was mapped, but the distribution of items over the entire property was documented.


Elarionoff asks what the purpose of mapping the height and width of the caves is?.


Tuggle says to understand the full context of where the burials are. It is also to understand the geology of the cave in the event heavy machinery is working in the area.


Cynthia Nazara (Nazara) asks where are the artifacts now?.


Tuggle says the inventory survey did include test excavations in certain sites, and some of the caves, but not near the burials themselves. Some of the burial caves are considered habitations sites, so there is cultural material there- food remains and other items. Some of that material was excavated during the inventory survey. That material is with the original archaeologist on O'ahu.


Nazara says when all is said and done what happens to this material?.


Greenwell says the descendants have asked the same question. They have been in discussions with the National Park on if the Park Service was willing to be the curator of cultural material. The descendants wanted assurances in writing that the Park Service would not be assuming ownership of these items. The Park Service is scheduled to begin construction on a research and curation facility in 2008. The discussions are on going.


Harp says he believes there was consensus among the descendant group that all items removed be repatriated. Harp understands that the Bishop Museum has a burial ki'i that needs to be returned. Harp would not be comfortable with these items being put on display.


Greenwell says there is a distinction between burial items and items not associated with the burials.


Young asks if there have been any incidents of burials being found in the quarry area, and if the inventory survey covered that area?.


Greenwell says it did.


Young says the inventory was in 1992, and the quarry activity began in 1967?.


Greenwell says there was quarry activity beginning in 1967 that did not require an inventory survey at that time- they were operating under a Conservation District Use Permit.


Young says sites may have been disturbed prior to the inventory survey, and current quarry activity may expose these disturbed areas.


Greenwell says the only incident like that was four or five months ago when a lava tube was exposed at a depth of 50-60 feet in the pit quarry. SHPD was called, and did a site inspection- no cultural items were found.


Young says the HIBC is accustomed to burial treatment plans where the extent of the burial tube is preserved, and buffers delineated on the surface.


Elarionoff asks if all the caves are connected?.


Tuggle says they are not.

Keolalani Hanoa says she is concerned about the CDUP being nearly 40 years old, and the inventory survey being conducted in 1992. Hanoa has concerns about inadvertent burials. Hanoa has a hard time believing there are only 5 burials. How was the inventory survey passed when it was 13 years old?. If you know the history of Honokohau, you know there was a big population.


All the descendants need to be informed. Each 'Ohana have different burial customs, and it makes sense that a representative of each family attend the meetings. The planning process needs to be inclusive of all the families.


Hanoa is not comfortable with buffers of 20 feet. There will be constant actions going on in this area. Hanoa is more comfortable with a permanent buffer of 30 feet, and a construction buffer of 100 feet.


The entire cave is the burial site. There is a belief that the 'uhane go holoholo within that whole area, so it is hard to block off the area where the burials are.


Hanoa would feel comfortable if the developers show good faith and treat any inadvertent finds as previously known. That way jurisdiction of all these burials stay with the HIBC. To often these decisions are left up the DLNR who know nothing about this Island or our culture.


Orr says there have been problems with getting in contact with all the descendants. There has been some confusion on who the recognized descendants are, and who the different contact people are.


Ruby McDonald (McDonald) says she is there on behalf of the Keana'aina 'Ohana- a hui of eighty first cousins- she is the oldest. Her 'ohana would like to be recognized as descendants of Kia'i i kahei ana. She will be submitting genealogy for verification. Their family responsibilities go back to the time of Kapalu and Ka'apa. There is written information and oral testimony.


Harp says the descendants want this area to be an area of known burials. The descendants want to be involved with any rediscovered burials.


Greenwell asks if the HIBC would like to have a site visit?.


Young says we need to have a motion to have the site visit, and we need to make sure we have quorum for it.


Elarionoff asks what the terrain and the land is like?.


Greenwell says the longest walk would be over pahoehoe and scrub about 150 yards. It takes some time to get in. At the other sites, the walk is shorter- it averages 20-150 yards over both pahoehoe and a'a. Most of the sites are on the edge of the lava flow. It would be 2.5 to 3 hours for the site visit.

A motion is made to have a HIBC site visit to Honokohau (Hanoa/Saffrey).


Vote: All in Favor



[TMK (3) 9-3-03:73]


Bob Rechtman (Rechtman) says this burial treatment plan was presented to the HIBC at the August meeting- a decision was deferred. There was talk of a site visit, but it was determined that was not necessary. Rechtman spoke with Keolalani Hanoa this morning about additional families who should be contacted- the families have been invited to the meeting. One descendant, Aunty Mabel is here, and Rechtman went over the plan with her this morning.


The HIBC made some suggestions and recommendations at the last meeting, and those are incorporated into the plan via replacement pages. The permanent buffer has been increased from 20 feet to 25 feet, and a temporary buffer has been established at 75 feet. A typo in Clarence Medeiros' name was corrected.


Cariaga asks if they know the name of the heiau identified during the inventory survey?.


Rechtman says not for sure. Some information based on historical sources, and the sites location, it could possibly be the historic Pakini Heiau. The size and look of the heiau seem to match the descriptions of Pakini Heiau.


Cariaga says the burials are on lot 8 of the planned subdivision- what is planned for that lot?.


Rick Vidgen (Vidgen) says agriculture.


Rechtman says the burials are within a large lava tube complex- the whole landscape of those tubes is being preserved, so the proposed preservation area is much larger than just the burials.


Cariaga says the burial treatment plan refers to the iwi discovered as "somewhat scattered"- what does that mean?.


Rechtman says some of the iwi have been scattered by rodents or other means.


Cariaga says she is concerned about machinery working near the sites.


Vidgen says they initially used what is called a hydro-ax in the area- it is like a big lawnmower. Most of this area today is pasture, and will require very little grubbing. The hydro-ax took down all the christmas berry shrub that was there.


Mabel McComber (McComber) says she is a descendant of Kekuhaupi'o. Her Family originated in Waiahukini and then migrated up to Kau- today Kau is known as Discovery Harbor. The Family home is Palauhulu (?). If you go to the library at Bishop Estate you will see a house with this haole man and his wife- he married the granddaughter of Kekuhaupi'o.


There are other descendants, but McComber does not think they are related to Pu'u'eo. Their burials are in Discovery Harbor, and right next to them was a large heiau, but that has passed. Right next to Kama'oa Road where it leads into Discovery Harbor is that place Palauhulu- that is where her great-grandmother (Kekuhaupi'o's daughter) and great- grandfather are buried. She knows a lot of names from Waiahukini, but they are not here today. Her uncle is the one who talked them- told them the history- she is the only one left.


Young asks McComber if she saw the plan?.


McComber says yes, the plan to preserve the graves.


End Tape 1 Side B

Begin Tape 2 Side A


Elarionoff asks McComber if they used to live mauka side of (?) store?.


McComber says yes that was the small house, and there was another up Pu'ulena.


Elarionoff asks about the families that came out of Waiahukini.


McComber says yes the Kaikua'ana's came up to Kama'oa, the Kalu and Nika Families. The last one to live down at Waiahukini was a young man named Benjamin Kepa- he lives in South Carolina now.


Margaret Grace (Grace) says her mom is from a family related to Kaumuali'i, the King of Kaua'i. She is also connected to Kalanikauleleiwi, and Keakealaniwahine.


History is telling us that if you are Hawaiian, now is the time to stand up and come together. Today, there are all kinds of different groups- Grace does not know where they are going. Grace is really concerned- Hawaiians are not American- we have our own country.


Cariaga asks Grace if she knows of the burials and heiau at Pu'u'eo.


Grace says the names have changed. The whole area is Ka Lae.


Cariaga says the heiau is by where you go to Discovery Harbor- the road to Waiohinu- where it meets Kama'oa and you can turn down. That is the area.


Grace says that is 'Umi's heiau. It is a big one.


Vidgen says an easement will be included to protect the heiau.


Pele Hanoa asks if the project is close to the DHHL Land?.


Rechtman says the project is mauka of the DHHL Land.


Pele Hanoa asks how big are the lots?.


Rechtman says 20 acres.


Young says this month's meeting was held in Ka'u to ensure the families would have the opportunity to come forward. This is up for a determination today. The burial treatment plan proposes preservation in place. The heiau will be preserved as well.


Darlynne Vierra (Vierra) says her family is of Kama'oa and Pu'u'eo- the Beck and Ke Families. They do have burials in the area. Vierra would like to be recognized as a descendant to the area.


Rechtman says all the descendants who are recognized will be provided access to these sites.


Vierra thanks everyone for their help in preserving her kupuna down in Kama'oa.


Rechtman says they will also be writing a preservation plan for the heiau.


Vierra says the project area is known to the cowboys as Shipman's Paddock.. Tommy Kaniho and all the oldtimers know. That is where they raised the bulls.


Young asks Vierra if she has seen the treatment plan.


Vierra says not really- she took a look at Cariaga's.


Kuali'i says he is concerned about Vierra having other family burials in the area.


Vierra says there are the Moi family and Mukini family.


Rechtman says there are Land Commission Awards outside of the project area.


Cariaga would like to recommend that the families keep working with the developer to protect that area.


Trinidad Marques (Marques) says it is very hard for Hawaiians to disclose the resting place of their kupuna- it is secret. When the kupuna come forward to speak, it is a plus.


Young says the location information for burial sites is not disclosed to the public. There are measures in place that preserve and respect our cultural practices- we are trying to harmonize that with the State, who write the laws. The HIBC's job is impossible without the help of the families.


Saffrey thanks the families for coming forward today.


Cariaga says even family genealogies are kept confidential.


A motion is made to preserve the burials within sites 24123 and 24124 located in Pu'u'eo Ahupua'a, Ka'u District, Hawai'i Island in place. (Cariaga/Sherlock)


Vote: All in Favor


A motion is made to recommend that the landowner and developers continue working with the known descendants of Pu'u'eo Ahupua'a to protect these sites.



Vote: All in Favor


Mary Anne Maigret (Maigret) says the families will also be consulted during the development of the preservation plan for the heiau.


Elarionoff says maybe it is too late now, but it would have been more practical to use the main road into the subdivision as the access road for the descendants, and then have an easement to the burials off of that road in between lots 8 and 9. It is much shorter that way, and people coming and going could be monitored. The Families should also think about working with the developer to seal the cave with a metal grate or stone.


Vidgen says the currently proposed access can be used for vehicles if people wishing to access need to drive in.


Elarionoff says he wants to keep the families options open.


A motion is made to recess for lunch (Cariaga/Kuali'i).


Vote: All in Favor



[TMK (3) 7-3-2:09


Rechtman says he made a presentation at the last meeting. This is a burial site in a small lava tube in Kalaoa, or as some pronounce it Kala'oa. The landowner is very cooperative with meeting with descendants. There were several meetings on site with the descendants to talk about treatment of the site, and buffers. The landowner is proposing preservation in place. One descendant proposed a thirty foot buffer, and the landowner is agreeable to building a rock wall at that distance.


The HIBC requested Rechtman re-contact Arthur Mahi and talk to him again about this property, and the possibility of other burials on the property that were not identified by the inventory survey. Rechtman did re contact Mahi, and Mahi reiterated what he had said previously- the burials in the lava tube that Rechtman identified in the inventory survey are the only ones Mahi knows about on this property- Mahi does not know any other specific burial locations on this property.


Young asks if there is going to be an updated burial treatment plan?.


Rechtman says the plan incorporates all of the descendant's input.


Pele Hanoa asks if the families were involved- was there a site visit?.


Rechtman says yes- they had a meeting on site, and there were six or seven family members there. Rechtman mailed copies of the burial treatment plan to everyone who gave him contact information.


Janet Nenio (Nenio) says she is a lineal descendant of Kupono. Nenio says she did not get an agenda for today's meeting.


Young asks if the Department has recommended recognition- is there any paperwork or anything that substantiates Nenio's claim?.


Lindsey says the Department has not received any paperwork yet, so it something we are still working on. If Nenio is saying she is a lineal descendant to Kupono, who was granted a LCA in this area, she would be cultural just based on that. For the Department to formally recognize someone, the Department needs to have some paperwork.


Nenio says she would like to go and visit the site- she has not been there yet.


Rechtman says the plan gives access privileges to descendants. The landowner has no problem with that.


Young says the item was deferred last month because of concerns regarding additional burials not being identified or addressed by the burial treatment plan.


Rechtman says everyone guided him towards Arthur Mahi. Mahi had no specific information.


Young asks Rechtman to confirm he did contact Mahi.


Rechtman says he did contact Mahi, and Mahi had no additional information.


Iwalani Arakaki (Arakaki) says shouldn't Mahi be the one who comes here to confirm that?. Arakaki says Nenio is the lineal descendant, and she has not even seen the site- she does not know where it is.

Lindsey says he was talking to Arakaki and Nenio at lunch, and explained the critical decision before the Council, is the decision to preserve in place. The door for descendant recognition is never shut. The families can talk to each other, and maybe they know who is buried in the site- that is for the family to talk over. After the HIBC determination, there is still the ninety day period to finalize the buffers, and walls and all that. Once the descendants have all been to the site, we can finalize the details within the three month period we have to work in.


Rechtman says he has not heard any objections to the proposal to preserve in place.


Kuali'i asks Nenio if she knows of any additional burials on this property?.


Nenio says she does not know for sure.


Arakaki says at the last meeting, Kawehi Gill said the person in the cave may be Kupono.


Nenio says another burial was found down below- Kaukali'inea.


Rechtman says that burial is on another property. Rechtman suggests to Nenio and Arakaki that they get together with Mahi to discuss the information. Rechtman does not feel comfortable divulging specific information that Mahi shared with about the known burial site subject to the burial treatment plan.


Young says there was some oral testimony that there may be more burials there. Young is not sure how the HIBC can deal with that issue as the HIBC is moving towards making a determination on the known burials addressed by the burial treatment plan.


Lindsey asks if additional testimony identifies burial sites?.


Young says yes.


Lindsey says the HIBC would be kept updated as that issue progresses.


Rechtman says burials identified through oral testimony and recognized by the HIBC are not inadvertent, they are previously identified, and a new burial treatment plan would have to be submitted.


Young asks Rechtman if in that scenario, the landowner would treat those additional sites in manner consistent with what is proposed in the treatment plan?.


Rechtman says the landowner is very preservation minded.


Lindsey says regardless of what the landowner would want to do, if there are previously identified burials, those are in the HIBC's jurisdiction to determine preservation in place or relocation.


Ruby McDonald (McDonald) says she is the granddaughter of the previous landowner of this property, and she would like to be recognized as a cultural descendant. The plan sounds really good- preservation in place. McDonald has no further comments at this point.


A motion is made to preserve the burials within site 24214 located in Kalaoa 2nd Ahupua'a, North Kona District, Hawai'i Island in place (Saffrey/Sherlock)


Vote: All in Favor


A motion is made to recommend that the lineal and/or cultural descendants be allowed access to these gravesites (Saffrey/Sherlock)


Vote: All in Favor


Young requests that the HIBC be kept informed of this issue as it moves along in the 90 day period via Case Updates.


End Tape 2 Side A

Begin Side B






Cariaga says the TMK on the agenda is wrong it is not parcel 32 it is parcel 36.


Lindsey says Keolalani Hanoa first brought these concerns to the Department's attention in May 2004. Lindsey feels the core of the concerns are that the area where this house was constructed at one time, or possibly still does contain a Native Hawaiian cemetery with at least 19 or 20 individual gravesites.


The memo dated April 27 of this year that was included in the packet this month summarizes some of the historical and archaeological information that is available. Based on this information, it does look like beginning in the 1960's sites in this area identified as burials were recorded. Lindsey thinks there is oral testimony that supports these burial identifications.


At some point in time a previous landowner, without obtaining the required permits, circa 1978, did unauthorized grading with a bulldozer that might have destroyed a good portion of this site. The property has changed hands. Because this property is in the Conservation District, the new landowner was required to obtain a Conservation District Use Permit to construct a single family home on this property. The permit was granted on the condition that they stay in the previously graded area. There are questions if the landowner went outside of the approved area- it is not just for the SHPD to answer that question.

Lindsey feels there are a couple of concerns. Obviously the first concern is the construction and location of the house.


The second concern is protection of additional sites on the property, and on State land which is immediately adjacent to this one. The SHPD has had staff go to the property, and confirmed that there are numerous sites. The entire parcel is 50 acres- outside of the graded area there is no doubt that there are sites going towards Kawa.


Keolalani Hanoa says the property was previously owned by a Mr. Ulrich. There was a red cinder road that has always been the families fishing access to this area. The part that was previously grubbed was closer to the highway. They all knew that the site was a cemetery for the families who lived in Ka'alaiki and Hokukano. Hanoa reported this when the dozers went in. They were supposed to stay on the previously graded area, but what they did was go onto the lava outcrop- there are burials and caves in this area.


Hanoa knew growing up that this was a burial area. When you come from Kawa on the old highway to Punalu'u, all the burials are along these lava outcrops. There was no call for lineal descendants. The property has now been subdivided. They did not comply with the CDUP- they did not stay on the previously graded area. Hanoa has received reports from contractors that said there were iwi everywhere.


Hanoa wants to know how long it is going to take the State to respond to these complaints?. Marc Smith was the last archaeologist to go and look at these sites. The community knows there are burials, and there was no call for descendants. Hanoa wants to know how the families are going to get justice.


If there is going to be a septic system, all that pilau water is going to drain into these caves onto our kupuna.


The area where the inadvertent burial in Keaiwa was found, the land has changed hands. Ka'u Agribusiness did a good job of taking care of the area, and the new landowner needs to be informed, and Hanoa hopes they will take good care of the site too.


Cariaga says this is on private property. One of the archaeological reports says that they were denied access to the property under Ulrich- they only assumed that these were burials based on the other archaeological work.


Cariaga is not sure if the house can be taken down, but we want to make sure it never, never happens again. A lot of development is coming to Ka'u- people are buying huge pieces of land.


Cariaga met with the landowner- Cariaga wanted to make sure they don't close of the right of way to the ocean for fishing.


Cariaga feels it is up to the Department to do something.


Keolalani Hanoa says she is upset. She is tired of Hawaiians having to accept everything that happens to us. Our kupuna don't deserve to have a house built on top of them. If they have to move the house, so be it. We have to set a precedent here.


Elarionoff asks Cariaga what she means by tearing the house down- legally or morally or what?.


Cariaga says legally- if the State wants to tear the house down and pay the landowner for it, fine. We need to stop things like this in the future, so it never happens again.


Sherlock says this issue goes back to the 1970's, and she remembers Hanoa contacting her office about it in 1999 and 2000. The issue is for State Government to deal with, not just the Department- it is the State of Hawai'i.


It looks like the CDUP did get approved without the knowledge of the community but there are a whole bunch of issues we are dealing with.


Keolalani Hanoa says the landowner had to be aware of this issue because in the packet they submitted for the CDUA, it talked about the burial issues. The site is on the State Historic Register.


Young says there was a process that allowed these people to build this house. There is also a process to protect Hawaiian burials. Somewhere there was a break down- we need to address that. Young wants to know what the HIBC is going to do for the iwi first- there may be iwi lying out in the open. Secondly, if there are other known burials on the property that are not addressed by a burial treatment plan, that is another problem, and Young would like to know how that happened.


Maigret says she did meet with the landowners and their attorney on the property. The purpose of this meeting was to assess if there were exposed remains, or remains in imminent danger. What Maigret saw was that nearly 100 percent of the graded area has been covered with gravel, and flattened out. Maigret did not see any exposed remains.


Maigret did see features, that she would classify as burials on the State land in between the property and the highway. Maigret did inspect the toe of the lava flow in between the graded area and the ocean. Maigret also saw areas where there could be iwi in small pockets and lava blisters.


Young says it sounds like there are additional burial features that need protection- are these burials registered?.


Maigret says the problem is the 1962 work and the Violet Hansen work do not have detailed maps we can use today and compare to what is there now. We have general information, but no specific information.


Young says if the HIBC would like these other sites protected, how would that happen?.

Maigret said it would be a new set of recommendations to the OCCL relative to the CDUP that was issued- there needs to be a violation of the original CDUP for that to happen.


Pele Hanoa says the lights from this house also affect the honu'ea- this area is where the turtles come to hatch their eggs.


Keolalani Hanoa asks how the State justifies the destruction of a previously known cemetery.


Lindsey says the first priority should be protection of the sites that are still there and not damaged.


Hanoa says even in the area where there is gravel- the iwi are still there underneath.


Ron Dela Cruz asks since staff did not see any iwi on the surface with the gravel, is there anything that prevents the State from telling the landowner we need start going down under the gravel?.


Lindsey says the State's ability to require landowners to do something on their land always initially is tied into some sort of permit or action- building or grading permits, a subdivision, re-zoning, or a CDUA. The first opportunity the State had was when the CDUA was initially being reviewed. The CDUA was routed to Historic Preservation, and the response was concurrence as long as the landowner stayed in the previously graded area. The ability to reopen this case requires the OCCL to determine there have been violations of the CDUP.


Lindsey says he is concerned about Hanoa's statement about the property being subdivided, because when the SHPD initially concurred with the CDUA, there was a condition that any further action on the property would require a full archaeological inventory survey. Lindsey does not recall reviewing on the subdivision request- that would have been SHPD's opportunity to address the other sites on the property.


Lindsey says the Department also needs to start working with the families to get oral testimony that substantiates the historical records.


Cariaga says if more meetings are held, make sure everyone is notified.


Lindsey says the Department will work the Attorney Generals office to decide disposition on the burials in the graded area issue, start working with the families to record any oral information they would be willing to share, work with the landowner to protect sites on the rest of the property, and work with the State to protect burials on State land adjacent to this property.


Elarionoff says the one thing he would add is that all of what Lindsey has outlined is done expeditiously.


A motion is made to support Lindsey's list of steps to take. (Elarionoff/Sherlock)


Vote: All in Favor


End Tape 2 Side B

Begin Tape 3 Side A




Lindsey says the Department was contacted over a year ago by Mr. Daryl De Silva regarding his concerns in Okoe Ahupua'a makai side. His concerns are over his family burial sites there that need protection. The way it was left, was that staff would do the site inspection, and report back to the HIBC. The sites are on State land.


The plan is to do the site inspection with De Silva, and start working on a Burial Registration.


Lindsey asks De Silva if there is activity going on in the area now?


Pele Hanoa says there has been bulldozing


Daryl De Silva (De Silva) says there is a lot of activity. The whole ahupua'a was in a land court case for 13 years- all the land was taken. De Silva's family is the only original one left in the ahupua'a. The land has changed hands- part of it is up for development. There are great concerns regarding development there.


The responsibility for the graves was passed on to him by the kupuna prior to them leaving. This process has taken some time. Things that happen in Okoe are meant to happen- that is his understanding. De Silva has passed on his information to his daughters just in case anything happens to him- someone will know where the sites are.


Now is the time to get moving on this.


Sherlock asks De Silva if anything has happened to the sites since the last time he came to the HIBC?.


De Silva says nothing has happened.


Young asks if the sites are on State or private property?.


Lindsey says it looks like all of the area is on State land.


De Silva says there are fishermen that use the area.


Pele Hanoa asks if the trails are still there?- the stepping stones?.


De Silva says the mauka-makai trails are there- that is something else he is working on. The whole area down there- there are sites. There are some concerns over the trail. De Silva is going to stay involved down there. The first step is the Burial Registration.


Lindsey says he will coordinate with De Silva to schedule the site visit, and start working on the burial registrations- that will give the HIBC the information.


Maigret says she is looking forward to the site visit to get background information on the area.


C. TMK (3) 1-6-91:54 and 1-6-91:Various KEA'AU AHUPUA'A, PUNA DISTRICT, HAWAI'I ISLAND


Keoni Alvarez (Alvarez) introduces himself to the HIBC.


Aileen Alvarez introduces herself to the HIBC. She lives in Ainaloa Subdivision. The lots are about a quarter acre- 12, 000 square feet. There is a burial cave across the street from their property. The opening of the cave is on the lot across the street, but the cave runs under her lot. There are three iwi- Lindsey came and say it.


Her concern is the buffer for the site. Just a D-9 bulldozer could take up the whole lot, and it would destroy the lot. The State Historic Preservation Division needs to preserve the lot, and preserve and protect this aina, and the iwi. They also have concerns over saftey hazards- there have been cave ins. There is a roadway- they are not sure who will take responsibility for protection of the cave.


Keoni Alvarez (Alvarez) says 16 years ago they built their home- that is how it all started. They reported the burial site to the police- they have no records of it. When they reported it, the archaeologist at the time came over and did their investigation- Alvarez has no records of that. The people who went in the cave were Elson Kalawe and Kekipi. Alvarez also thinks it was a Smith who was the archaeologist.


Alvarez's whole goal is to perpetuate the Hawaiian culture and preserve everything with it. Alvarez reported the cave because he knows people started to develop, and right now four or five home per month are being built.


This is a large cave- it has three iwi in it. This is a part of our heritage, and we want to preserve it- and not disturb it in any way. Alvarez says he had a hard time getting on the agenda- it took numerous calls to Lindsey, and Alvarez really had to convince Melanie Chinen- they had some long talks, and Chinen agrees with him. That is why he is here today.


Personally Alvarez feels you should not be able to build on a burial site at all. When you move the burials, it is tampering with the site, and Alvarez believes strongly that is wrong.


A realtor came to the property, and Alvarez told him about the cave. The realtor came with the landowner who wanted to build a house. Alvarez told her no, because there was the cave- and there is iwi in it. Alvarez got in touch with Elson Kalawe and Kalawe told him the whole situation. This property has been sold three times in three weeks.


The police went in the cave and their report says these iwi are believed to be ancient Hawaiian burials. This is a big cave- if there is one there is many more. Alvarez is trying to preserve the area.


Alvarez does not feel when Maigret and Lindsey went into the cave that it was a thorough investigation. Alvarez feels you need to be prepared- you can't take it lightly- they did not have a ladder or the proper gear. You need to survey the cave, and look for artifacts. Alvarez went into the cave- he did not want to. The cave could go farther- we are not sure. A road runs over the cave- school buses go over the road. Alvarez alerted the County, civil defense, SHPD, Ainaloa Subdivision- he is really going to take action on the issue.


The site is on private property. Someone can take three bulldozers and level a whole lot in one day- it would only be a 1000 dollar fine- it is a petty misdemeanor. Alvarez called Senator Kokubun- they are going to meet, and try and establish stricter penalties for these types of violations.


There is another site that his brother went into- there are ocean rocks. There are two round bodies. It is a burial site and needs to be protected.


The landowners need to be notified now- we can't wait until people start bulldozing. The whole thing about Ainaloa Subdivision is that you don't need to report the grading- you can wipe out the whole property. Alvarez wants to notify the landowners that there are sites. They are trying to get an inventory survey for the entire area. Burials are supposed to be there forever- they should not be moved or tampered with.


Lindsey says Leslie Eversole has been identified as the landowner of the property where the opening to this tube is. About 300 feet into this lava tube there are iwi. It is most likely that the location of these iwi are on an adjacent property. The Department has determined preservation in place- the question is how to protect the tube since it crosses over multiple properties.


Not every property in this subdivision is going to be subject to a permit or action- the State's ability to come in and inventory cultural sites relies on a permit or something of that nature. The letter that went out notified Hawai'i County Planning and Public Works, and the Ainaloa Community Association- at least they have been notified in case there is some sort of development or improvements in the future.


There are multiple landowners involved, because we don't know where this tube goes- the tube has not been delineated on the surface.


Alvarez says that is something that needs to be done quickly- there are burial sites involved.


Elarionoff asks Alvarez the lots are 12, 00 square feet- the houses are on catchment, and there are cesspools?.


Alvarez says yes, and that is another concern- the lava tube could be used for a cesspool. It is legal to do that. Alvarez is upset over how people get away with this- the property is being sold over and over.


Cariaga asks this is in Ainaloa Subdivision?.


Alvarez says yes. He is trying to alert everyone.


Young says the letter has been written, has there been a response from the landowner?.


Alvarez says the realtor wants to preserve it.


Lindsey says the thing to emphasize is that the opening to the tube is on one property, and the tube very quickly leaves the property and goes beneath other properties. The tube needs to be delineated as it runs through the subdivision.


Saffrey asks Alvarez about his thought that this is an Ali'i burial site.


Alvarez says from talking to Kalawe and Kekipi- the way the light shines into the cave- that is what he has been told. He knows there is some mana- he wishes he did not go in- he when pule before he went in. For some reason something is pushing him to preserve the site.


Young asks if this site is inadvertent?.


Lindsey says it is. From the time they went in 16 years ago, it was inadvertent.


Aileen Alvarez says she called the police when it initially happened 16 years ago- the police gave the information to the DLNR.


Young asks if any knowing desecration of the site would be considered a violation of the law?.


Lindsey says it would be.


Young asks how the State would react if the entrance to the cave was disturbed?.


Lindsey says generally for a violation to occur, the has to be damage to the iwi in the cave- penetrating a buffer zone- destroying the entrance to a cave- there is a lot of grey area there what the violation is.


Alvarez says 6D protects caves from damage.


Lindsey says 6D is not necessarily a historic preservation thing- Lindsey is talking specifically about 6E burial violations. A recent law makes it a little stricter.


Young asks if there are CC&R's in the subdivision?- these may provide protection.


Aileen Alvarez says there are.


Lindsey says going back to 6D, it is illegal to go on someone's land and destroy or alter a cave, but under 6D, if you have the landowner's permission, it is ok. The real issue is what is a burial site- it is where the iwi are.


Sherlock says there are ways to do a title search for the original owners of the property- there may be old maps.


Alvarez says someone was recently fined 10,000 dollars for selling a skull on ebay. These people here are selling whole burial sites. We need to work together to get stricter penalties.


Lindsey says there are private property interests afforded people in this Country. As far as burials go, as long as you provide protection, or go through the process to relocate the burial, you can build on the land the burial is on.


Alvarez does not want to leave his heritage in someone else's hands. He is letting these people know about the iwi. The iwi are under his house- the opening to the tube is on another property.


End Tape 3 Side A

Begin Side B


The iwi are towards the back end of his house.


Ron Dela Cruz asks if it is a big cave?.


Alvarez says it is.


Young says there have been cave-ins in the tube- are these natural or caused by activity?.


Alvarez says buses drive on the road.


Cariaga asks about the condition of the iwi.


Lindsey says the iwi were probably placed in there a certain way, but through time things have changed.


Dela Cruz asks if there are burial goods?.


Lindsey says most likely, no.


Alvarez says what about other sites in the area?.


Lindsey says we can take a look at those too, but for this cave it is a staffing and time issue- to do the level mapping that needs to be done, it won't be anytime soon, there are 50 cases ahead of this one. Lindsey says he does not like going that route.


Young says the responsibility of these iwi should run with the land. If Young was the lot owner, he would afford protection for the iwi, and do it his way.


Alvarez asks if the burials will be moved?- they need to be preserved in place.


Lindsey says the Department has determined to preserve in place.


Kuali'i says the mapping does take time, and the cave does cross over multiple properties.


Alvarez says they are notifying everyone of the iwi.


Aileen Alvarez says the properties are so small, that if they start bulldozing, everyone will be affected.


Keoni Alvarez says he is working with Councilman Gary Safarik, and will be meeting with Senator Kokubun to try and get things done.


Alvarez wonders if the State can get someone back in there to get the mapping done?.


Lindsey says the Division does have the staff with that expertise. The real question is when staff is going to get out there.


Alvarez says in that case all development should stop until we can get the level of documentation.


Young says all the landowners in the area should be notified via a similar letter that has already gone out.


Alvarez says because the lots are so small, no permits are going to be required- he spoke with the Planning Department.


Maigret says the SHPD does not see every building permit. It is up to individual agencies to decide what the SHPD will review- that is how we have the ability to require archaeological inventory surveys.

Alvarez says he wants to preserve this site in place, and then work on identifying other sites.


Cariaga says maybe one day Alvarez will come back and teach us something.


Elarionoff says it is a possibility that once the mapping and documentation takes place, the building department can be notified, and they could red flag the affected lots.


Saffrey asks if the entrance could be blocked?.


Lindsey says it could be- the landowner would have to be consulted.


Alvarez says he does not want rocks dumped in there.


Lindsey says it would be like capping a cesspool.


Dela Cruz says everyday it is exposed, there is danger.


A motion is made to recommend that the entrance to the cave be blocked (Saffrey/Cariaga).


Vote: All in Favor


Alvarez hopes it would not be a permanent cap.




A motion is made to adjourn the meeting (Dela Cruz/Sherlock)


Vote: All in Favor


The meeting is adjourned at 317p.


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